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What weekend in November would work the best for this event?

November 7th - 8th
November 14th - 15th
November 21st - 22nd
November 28th - 29th

November 2008 Arizona State Championship Cook-off

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Jaybird

Hey Chris and Dean...the world of competition BBQ doesn't work that way. It is what it is...there is no branching off. Not just me talking, that is the way it is.
#46 - April 29, 2008, 10:11:40 pm

The Gym 14

  • Karma: 0
I and alot of us need to go through the class to be certified, it can only give us a better idea of what to expect. Still they cant teach your tastebuds to be on the exact page of other judges. I know coming from Missouri I like things a little different from Southwest people. Not saying one is better than the other just different. So I don't think anyone is a WHOLE lot better than others, what makes it exciting on judgement day, anyone can jump up and take something unexpectantly. Regardless there does need to be a certain criteria for judging (no matter who) if the outcome is important to qualifying or earning points which everyone could agree upon.
#47 - April 29, 2008, 10:25:35 pm
Ken Hinton

force

  • Karma: 1
I know you have a better understanding Jay......... I don't understand that it is the way it is though........ if one can go to Jack without KC sanction..... if I got that right......... then that would be branching off, wouldn't it?  I wouldn't expect any type of respect immediately from KC if AZ formed their own sanction and certified judges.......... Doesn't mean we could not do a respectable job......... IBM once was the giant of computers........ desk tops...... and refused to branch off......... into lap tops........... IBM practically went bankrupt because they thought they were untouchable......... the little guy in the garage decided he could build a completely different type of computer and didn't get any respect......... was told you can't compete with the big boys.......... I think Bill Gates didn't let the big boys stop him..............

I don't know how many teams travel out of state and how many are sanctioned...... haven't been around as long as some of the experienced cookers.... I do know I can travel in state better than I can out of state......... Judging classes for our own certification could become a reality........ we could do our own thing here and if there are enough teams for state chapmionship and certified AZ judges........ and winners have a shot at Jack........ What is wrong with that picture then?

I would sign up...... and I would help....... Leaders take risks and create trails for others to follow.. you can't fly without resistance............ We can make this happen............ I respect you greatly.... but can't buy into the way it is........ If I did...... I wouldn't be in the position I have today..................
#48 - April 29, 2008, 10:49:27 pm
Huge Fan of Mike (AZBarbeque)... He's My Hero..

Jaybird

Chris, you have a great way at looking at things, no doubt. You cannot recreate the wheel. It's round and it's not gonna change. That's why it works. You are not going to pave the way into new territory that's already been discovered. Nobody will follow you there. It's like starting a new football league here in Arizona with new rules. How far do you think that will go? Sorry you can't 'buy' into it. But there is no branching off. Yes, you can branch for a contest or two but you can't make it your whole game plan. Your new league will die.
#49 - April 30, 2008, 05:53:34 am

force

  • Karma: 1
Well I think we need a new football team here........LOL.......I know what you are saying and it doesn't mean everything would be done AZ cert and not KC...... however..... we already branch off now with the events that we do that are not sanctioned by KC.......... and we get a mixture of judges.......... I believe the events we have now could become more effective with judging per say with our own certification..... because right now they are either KC cert or have no cert..... a better picture would be KC and AZ cert at events we have here when they are not sanctioned by KC..... At least you would find more consistency and educated judges..........

You are right about the wheel......... but it has been modified and recreated throughout time........... different sizes, styles, composition and prices....... and in today's world....... if the wheel breaks........ people just buy a new car........ I prefer to fly if I can't fix it.........LOL..............
#50 - April 30, 2008, 07:03:15 am
Huge Fan of Mike (AZBarbeque)... He's My Hero..

BBQCZAR

  • Karma: -7
Hey Jay,correct me if I am wrong here,but isn't the Royal the only event you CAN'T get into without winning a KCBS sanctioned event ? I know you can get into the Jack without KCBS sanctioned events,I am not sure about Memphis in May (haven't looked that up ever, I think )I know it is always better to be sanctioned,but what HUGE (Royal,Jack,MIM,)events actually require you to win a KCBS sanctioned contest to get drawn or invited ?
#51 - April 30, 2008, 08:17:16 am
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Jaybird

I know the Oinks got into the Royal by winning a nonsanctioned event. That was about 5 years ago. This is for the invitational. Actually anyone can go to the Royal anytime they want....in the Open.

Just looked it up and it is the same qualifying criteria as the Jack. It doesn't say anything about KCBS sanctioning is mandatory.
#52 - April 30, 2008, 08:24:25 am
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 08:33:32 am by Jaybird »

BBQCZAR

  • Karma: -7
Oh,ok,then really nobody has to have win a KCBS sanctioned event to get into any big events.I know the draw is better with KCBS,and I like having a rep and CBJ's on site,but if the money is not there to do all that then I would rather still have an event,then none at all.
#53 - April 30, 2008, 08:48:28 am
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Thom Emery

  • Karma: 2
Hey Jay,correct me if I am wrong here,but isn't the Royal the only event you CAN'T get into without winning a KCBS sanctioned event ? I know you can get into the Jack without KCBS sanctioned events,I am not sure about Memphis in May (haven't looked that up ever, I think )I know it is always better to be sanctioned,but what HUGE (Royal,Jack,MIM,)events actually require you to win a KCBS sanctioned contest to get drawn or invited ?

IBCA GCs go to the Royal and Jack Draw with  proclamation/50
The Royal wants teams they are not in Business to turn people away
#54 - April 30, 2008, 11:33:31 am
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VisionQuest220

  • Karma: 0
I think one of the biggest points that is being ignored here the presence of a neutral and disinterested third party who is responsible for the proper execution of the rules and regulations of the contest.  Think whatever you like about that not being important but when you, as a competitor, have even the slightest inkling that something about the contest is fishy, it taints the outcome.

Consider this scenario:  Joe Promoter is running a "self-sanctioned" contest and, in addition to his responsibilities as promoter, is also acting as "The Rep" for the event and is overseeing judging, adherence to rules, etc.  Joe Promoter is also the sponsor of a team that is cooking in the event.  The outcome of the event is that the team that Joe Promoter sponsored wins the GC.  Does anyone honestly think that everyone who particpated in the event is not going to question if perhaps something funny might have happened along the way to manipulate the results?  The presence of a neutral and disinterested third party repping the event would give all competitors the assurance that everything was done on the level and that the outcome was genuine.

Now, before anyone gets their panties in a wad and thinks I'm pointing fingers, keep in mind that the above scenario has not happened here, to the best of my knowledge.  However, you don't wait until your house burns down before you think about getting insurance.  Just the opposite.  You get the insurance to protect yourself.  Having a neutral and disinterested third party as "The Rep" is the insurance policy.

Another thing that I think needs to be stated is that while the money needs to be right at an event, money is not the only consideration that I and others that I have spoken to at length on this topic consider when deciding whether or not to enter an event.  Sanctioning has been right at the top of the list and KCBS is the sanctioning body of choice because of the assurance of fairness, the judging process and the fact that it is "The Gold Standard" in the industry. 

You can tell me all about how great it would be to have an "Arizona Sanctioning Body" that will be the method used at all contests in the state and I'll tell you that the two biggest promoting entities in the state can't agree to get along so how is it going to be possible to get them to agree on the rules for this new sanctioning body?  You can tell me that the new rules will be better and will target all the things that people think are most important and I'll tell you a couple of stories about how the technologies behind 8-track audio tape, Betamax video tape and Apple computers were clearly superior to their rivals but that cassettes, VHS and IBM PC beat them in sales.  Why?  Because the market chose cassettes, VHS and PC just as the market has chosen KCBS.  This is a fact, like it or not.

What I read as the underlying message in this thread is that "self-sanctioned" State Championships are going to be abundant and likely at every contest possible because it serves the best interests of the promoter.  And while that may be true in the short run, the contests will always be small because there are way too many contests out there that are going to be KCBS sanctioned and out of state people, given the choice of driving here for a "self-sanctioned" event with no guarantee of a fairly run contest or going to a KCBS event the same distance away, they'll choose the KCBS event the vast majority of the time.  And so would I.

The mantra of many financial planners is that people don't plan to fail they simply fail to plan.  Look beyond the first year of any of these "self-sanctioned" events and they'll likey never be qualifiers because there won't be enough teams (25) in attendance.  They'll just be come backyarders with a decent prize pool.  Again, like it or not, you can get on the KCBS bandwagon or wind up with the 8-track and Betamax crowd.
#55 - April 30, 2008, 11:37:05 am
http://www.rhythmnque.com
The All-WSM Championship Barbeque Team
2008 & 2009 CBBQA Team of the Year

toys4dlr

  • Karma: 5
Hey Chris and Dean...the world of competition BBQ doesn't work that way. It is what it is...there is no branching off. Not just me talking, that is the way it is.

Hey Jay, just playing devil's advocate, but doesn't Florida have FBA???  How did that come about and it seems that they have good draws in thier events.  Was IBCA started before or after KCBS???  I really don't know.  But others orgs have been started and do very well.  It could just be a regional thing, but it does happen.

Just because it is easier to jump on the established org, does not mean that it is imposible to start and grow a new org.  However, I think Vince hit it on the head with a neutral third party running the events and consistant judging.  This will give the competitors a positive feeling for their efforts.

If I was a betting man, I would bet that most of the bigger events today did not have KCBS sanctioning from the beginning.  I bet it had a good prize fund, drew a good field and positive word of mouth led to future growth.  With that growth, came additional sponsors, more entries which in turn provided more money to allow for the KCBS Cert.  I have not been around the BBQ comp scene for a long time, so I might be wrong. 

This is kinda a chicken and the egg conversation, as you need teams to compete to have an event.  To get more teams, I would think a larger prize fund is needed in the beginning.  To continue to grow that event, I would think that some form of sanctions would be needed. 

It is really hard to run, when we (in Arizona BBQ) are just learning to walk.  Sorry to say, but Rawhide is an example of what could happen if you try to do too much, too early to please everyone.  Two sanctioned events, but the other problems might have given AZ a step or two back not forward.

I might be in the minority, but steady, solid growth, good prize funds and well run professional events will help AZ grow.  That might be to all events being KCBS cert or something else.  We really need to look at this as a business plan with a 5 year growth plan. (can you see the banker coming out??)  The one thing I am sure, is we all need to support the growing BBQ events in AZ.  Without teams and judges, there is no chance of growth. 

My 2 cents, do with it what you will. 



 

#56 - April 30, 2008, 12:47:51 pm
Toys 4 BBQ'N
Competition BBQ Team - Anthem, Arizona

Comfort is King with our team

Q-TO-U-BBQ, Anthem AZ
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Jaybird

Yes, Florida does have their own sanctioning body. They also have hundreds of teams. We have maybe 20.

I understand growing contests into bigger ones. But I'm afraid the thought 'why should we pay KCBS when we can give it to the teams' will become the standard thought forever. When do you decide to have a KCBS contest? I not against not having KCBS contests as long as they are planning to grow into one.

This idea of starting and growing a new organization of this nature is kind of mind boggling to me. Do you understand what that would take to become a reality? That is a massive hill to climb with legalities and other big words I can't spell.

I agree with Vince on about everything he said.
#57 - April 30, 2008, 01:36:44 pm

BBQCZAR

  • Karma: -7
I agree with Vince and Jay to a point,but if all the contests are to be KCBS sanctioned then there may be few and far between Az. events.I know that KCBS is the way to go,probably always will be,but if the money for the sanctioning isn't there,then do you just simply have no Az. contests and only do out of state contests ? Or do you charge $500 entry fee so as to make enough for the sanctioning fee ? In a perfect world and economy the right answer would be to get more sponsor money,but as things stand now,that is unlikely to happen,just wait till this fall and see how many more contest get cancellled,and next spring,wow,really look out ! I am in total agreement about having a 3rd party to oversee events and judging,and to get proper judges who know what and how to judge,thats exactly what I want,but is there then no other way to do it except use KCBS ? What are IBCA fees,I don't have any answers at this time,but if all anyone want to do is KCBS sanctioned events,then we may be spending alot on gas to travel out of state soon :(
#58 - April 30, 2008, 02:07:20 pm
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VisionQuest220

  • Karma: 0
Tim, I am not advocating that every event be KCBS sanctioned.  I am, however, strongly behind the idea that only events sanctioned by KCBS or IBCA be designated as State Championships so as to make them very important contests and not diluted by being perhaps the 7th or 8th State Championship of the year.

As for needing every event to be a State Championship so as to please sponsors due to the prestige, that makes no sense.  How can something have great prestige when it is common to every event?  By making only the KCBS or IBCA sanctioned events State Championships they truly do become prestigious because they are a scarce commodity.
#59 - April 30, 2008, 02:24:56 pm
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The All-WSM Championship Barbeque Team
2008 & 2009 CBBQA Team of the Year

Thom Emery

  • Karma: 2
I have done the organizer head judge your Kid wins the RC and another time wins the GC
LOL Thats why I brought in Kelly to be a IBCA head Judge  so I could step back from Judging
At Stagecoach I brought in KCBS and Ben L so i could stay out of the Judging tent

Guys this same topic is in play over here

I see it as
1 Rookie  Training/ Teaching Events
2 Events that are low cost and are sanctioned by either the IBCA or some other Body
3 Major Events that are KCBS
We have Reps in state Kelly McIntosh is just a couple short of being a Rep
AZ does not and cant get one for at least two years with the New Reps system stopped and the training period needed

#60 - April 30, 2008, 04:12:42 pm
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What Wood Jesus Q

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