AZ Barbeque.com
AZBarbeque Events => Upcoming Events => Topic started by: Mike (AZBarbeque) on April 25, 2008, 03:22:37 pm
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Hey all, we just firmed up details for this November's Big BBQ Cook-off.
Pulte Homes will once again be our big, Presenting Sponsor and it will once again be held out at their Festival location West of Surprise off of Bell Road.
What weekend would work best for this event? I know there are sporting events scattered throughout the month including NASCAR, ASU & The Cardinals, so please sound off on what weekend would be more preferred.
We are currently looking at a $10,000 prize pool paid in Cash at the event with the possibilty of going up depending upon sponsorships.
This will be an Official State Championship as we do have the Governor's Proclaimation. I don't know yet if it will be sanctioned by KCBS or by AZBarbeque like the last two were. Thoughts, suggestions, Ideas?
From our discussions with Pulte, this is really going to be an incredible event and we are very excited that Pulte has stepped up to help make this event happen.
Our goal is to get 25 - 30 teams out there, but we will only need 15 for it to be a State Championship since it will be a first year event for Pulte.
We look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas on this event.
Thanks,
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I have an event the 1st weekend in Nov here
We would love to cook one of these
What do you guys do Thanksgiving weekend?
After Thursday I only watch football
I would love to cook a contest that Saturday
Friday free to travel there Sunday to get home
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ASU has a big home game against UCLA that Friday, but if that weekend works, we could work around it.
The problem would be that it's such a shopping weekend that I don't know if Pulte will feel they can get enough of the public out there that same time.
If your event is on the 8th, we could still do one the 15th or 22nd.
Thoughts, suggestions??
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Mine is Saturday Nov 1
Mid Month would work
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Nov. 7,8..... works for me............
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Nov. 7,8
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I vote that it would be a KCBS event. Doesn't really matter what weekend for us.
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Any weekend, we'll be there! STARVIN MARVIN'S BBQ-PAT
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What Jay said.
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Yea KCBS or Pacific Southwest BBQ Association
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I vote all of the above. Above being last few posts.
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Just let us know what date and we will be there
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Yep,what Jay said goes for me as well. KCBS !
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when ever
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I'm going to elaborate on my answer just a bit and make another suggestion:
If this or any other event is not sanctioned by either KCBS or IBCA then I think it should drop the "State Championship" designation. I've kept this opinion mostly to myself but I think it is time to be more open about it. My reasoning is that a State Championship is supposed to be a big deal and with it potentially come some hefty perks. Because of the serious nature of those perks, the event should be under the supervision of a neutral and disinterested third party, (KCBS or IBCA Rep), and have a judging pool that is as experienced and educated as possible.
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I agree with Vince. Cookers put a lot of money out for contests and I think we deserve the best possible judging pool we can have. I do think the organizers should look into sanctioning ( preferrably KCBS) as many of the contests as possible. We are getting more and more Arizona teams into the sport which is great. A state championship is a serious matter to us and I think it should coinside with 'serious' sanctioning and judging.
It was great for Mike and Aaron to get the State Championship proclamations and I thank them for that. Along with Vince and some others I agree we should use it wisely and not loosely.
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I would echo the preference for KCBS sanctioning. From the cooking team's perspective, the lure of a State Championship is in large part due to it being a draw for the Jack. IBCA-style cooking doesn't do much to prepare us for being competitive there, so KCBS style has come to be our primary focus.
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So, along that line, you would rather have a lesser prize fund and KCBS Sanctioning then a heftier prize fund and AZBarbeque Sanctioning?
From my experience at the two events we have sanctioned this year, I have not seen a difference in judging. Heck, most of the judges were KCBS judges anyway.
For us to have KCBS out at an event costs a minimum of $3500. If we just have a $5000 prize fund for the event, that now cuts it down to just $1500. Seems like a better use of the money to me would be going to the competitors, but that's just me. We will try to accomodate whatever the majority want.
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I guess the determining factor then for KCBS sanctioned VS non- KCBS sanctioned is how much money is in the prize pool.I would say if the prize pool is 5K and under than yes,to me makes no sense to sanction when all the money will be used for sanction fee's.Unless the teams are charged $500 entery fee that goes towards prize pool,but I don't think that would go over very well either.Maybe see if more sponsors could be lined up between now and the events ??
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I think that will be the determining factor.
Right now, our prize pool for Pulte is $5000 from Pulte and we are aggressively seeking another $5000 from sponsors. We want to keep the entrance fees low so that we can make it affordable to lots of teams. We are thinking $200 - $250 including Electric & Ice.
Our hope is to have $10,000 prize fund State Championship event. If we get sponsor above that, then we certainly would look at KCBS Sanctioning as we really enjoyed having them last year at the event. I will talk with Merl more about this at the Stagecoach event this weekend and see what his thoughts, ideas & suggestions are as well.
As a Competitor myself, I would rather be at an event with more Prize money paying deeper into the field than less prize money and sanctioning. Especially seeing as we will be an "Official" State Championship event. But that's just me.
Let's hear everyone else's thoughts... ;) Wait a minute, we are almost sounding like a democracy over here... I thought we were a dictatorship... ;D :o
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I think the locals just proved that a certain number of teams would come out for a low-money contest that was a shot for a draw. Sanctioning would only sweeten the deal.
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Well, I do understand what you're sayin Mike. It is a catch-22. If you stay at $5000 prize money with no sanctioning you probably will not draw any teams from out of state. If that's the case we'll have the same 15 Arizona teams beatin on each other every contest. If you get $10,000 and sanctioning you could get 30 plus teams (gas prices determining) and judges coming from out of state. Don't know if we have enough Arizona judges alone for that big of a contest.
I think some people were gung ho for Saddle Sore after it became a state championship. I signed up before anyone had a clue it was going to be one. Afterwards I think people are having second thoughts about it. Probably for several different reasons. Just guessing, but I just get that edgy feeling. :(
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Jay, I understand your concerns, but from my experiences and from what I've heard, our AZBarbeque Sanctioned events are much different than the Association Sanctioned events. I feel ours really do more closely follow the KCBS competitions.
We do want to draw Teams from out of state, and I think with an "Official" State Championship, $10,000 prize fund and still a chance for a Jack Draw, we would do that whereas with just a $3000 - $5000 prize fund and KCBS sanction, I don't think we would. Most teams that travel want a larger prize fund for a chance to win the cost of their expenses. This is just from my experience and talking with the teams.
Great conversation though, I like that we have so much quality input. Keep it going...
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I am with Mike on this............ more money for the competitors........and not outrageous fees to enter...... I also thought in addition to the sanctioning...... you have to pay for the judges flight and stay....... or am I wrong on that......
The economy right now is dictating many things......... seems to me if you want teams from other states........... you would want a different title........ like Southwest Champion.......... why would I live in AZ and go to Calif and win the state championship there........ rather win it here........ and then go to Calif and win the Southwest Championship .... I believe it is important to have at least 3 state championships a year for competitve total......... that would be one every 4 months..... who is to say we couldn't start our own sanctioning and training of judges........ just because there has been two....... there can't be three? Break out and lead our own path.............
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I also thought in addition to the sanctioning...... you have to pay for the judges flight and stay....... or am I wrong on that......
I'm sure you meant the overseeing KCBS Official(s)....or have I been missing out on a perk??? ;D
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No, you don't pay for judges. They pay their own way. You do pay for the KCBS reps to fly out and lodging.
The Jack only recognizes state championships not regional championships.
You go to other states to win a GC to go to the Jack also. I would rather win it here too. My first trip to the Jack was for a win in California, my second for a win in Utah.
Training of judges and judging will have to resemble KCBS or it will not fly. There is no breaking out in a different direction. You will have no followers. Just the way it is.
Mike, the bottom line is the judging. You have to convince everyone that your judges are for real and you follow KCBS to the letter. That is hard to do. Even KCBS sanctioned contests are questioned about the judges they use. It is hard to train future judges when there are no KCBS contests to attach their training to and no official trainers.
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I've read all the posts since my last and I while I understand that there needs to be a balance between cost to put on an event and payouts to teams, Jay said it best when he said that "the bottom line is judging". When I consider all the time, effort and energy, (not to mention money), that we put into preparing and participating in a competition, it is a slap in the face to us and all the teams when the judging is an afterthought.
Almost all of the KCBS Certified Barbeque Judges that I have met at the events we have been to take as much pride in what they do as we do as competitors. Just like us, they are willing to travel, pay for hotels and other expenses just to judge and they do not receive any compensation for their efforts. They do it because they enjoy doing it and they take is very seriously.
Although the money needs to make sense at an event, that isn't the only consideration, at least not for me. The truth is that I would rather be at a lower paying contest that was sanctioned and had 100% CBJ than be at a high paying, non-sanctioned, pull 'em off the street at the last minute event. That events designated as a State Championship could end up being the latter instead of the former is something that should be avoided at all costs.
As I said earlier, State Championships should be something special not something tagged on to every event just because it can be. I stand by my earlier statement that a State Championship should be a sanctioned event overseen by a neutral and disinterested third party and judged by experienced and educated judges. I would rather have fewer contests that had greater prestiege if that was the way it had to be.
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Well I knew someones flight and stay was paid for....... so to go to Jack.. state champs....... and does it have to have been sanctioned by KC to go to Jack?
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Chris, no, it does not need to be sanctioned to be a Jack Qualifier.
From my experiences, not all KCBS events have 100% CBJs either. I know at each event, we try to get as many CBJ's as we can. Since November, we now have a larger pool of CBJ's here in Arizona. I don't ever think that Judging is an afterthought, but it is something we will pay closer attention to in the future.
Playing Devil's Advocate, the odds of most teams going to the Jack or even getting into a position to be in the draw are minimal, so with that in mind, teams would rather see a larger payout of money going deeper into the field so that more of them got a chance to walk and make back some of their money. Yes, maybe when teams get to a level where they are winning on a regular basic this could change. Heck, even if most teams were to win GC at an event and get drawn for the Jack, the odds of most of them having the time available or the money to make the trek back to the Jack would be mimimal.
I personally like the idea of having more "Official" State Championship events as in the slight chance I do win GC at one of them, I do get the opportunity to go into the draw. So, if I am at an event with 15 - 20 teams, my odds are better than at 40 - 50 teams. I know my team and I have worked very hard for the past 3 years to get more than one "Official" State Championship BBQ Cook-off here in the state and we fully plan on taking advantage of using them. Not only is it great for you the competitors, but it's also great for our Sponsors to be involved with such a Prestigist designation.
Don't get me wrong, I like having an event sanctioned by the KCBS, but to me, the benefits do not outweigh the costs, and if they do, I just don't see them at this point. If we have an "Official" State Championship competition offering a $10,000 prize fund with AZBarbeque sanctioning and a simliar "Official" State Championship competition offering a $5000 prize fund but sanctioned by the KCBS, I would be very surprised if the KCBS one had more competitor entries than the AZBarbeque sanctioned one.
Case in point is our first year Lake Pleasant event, we had 52 teams at, then last year, with a bigger prize fund, more local teams and KCBS Sanctioning, we only had 47.
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Mike, will most or all of these contests be in the Phoenix area?
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Most of them will be, we are in talks with some other cities as well, but nothing firm yet that we can announce. Everything will be within 2 - 3 hours of Phoenix.
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Posted this question on Ray Basso's Forum:
How do you all feel about non-KCBS contests that are Jack qualifiers because of a Governors proc and have the right amount of teams. Will be using KCBS rules and mostly CBJ's. Point is there will be more money for teams without having to pay for KCBS sanctioning. This is something being discussed in my state. Pros? Cons? Thanks
Some responses:
From Drbbq, Ray Lampe
Hi Jay,
I don't think it's a problem that they are JD qualifiers, but I do think that at some point KCBS is going to have to ask all of these contests that are claiming to use the KCBS rules and system to stop doing that or at least stop promoting it as such. KCBS has built the system and now there seems to be a movement to blow them off and just use their name and it's just not right.
You want to have an unsanctioned contest, go ahead, but don't use our name in your promotion
From Podge, winner of last years Jack
As long as it meets the requirements of being a JD qualifier, and is a well-ran contest with good money, and ran as if it were a KCBS contest, I would consider such a contest (and have in the past)
From Rollin' Smoke
Jay, I know it can be done because we did it in Kettering, Ohio last year with good results. That was the first contest and the only reason we elected to go the unsanctioned route was because we didn't want to build too much overhead into the project until we knew it would become an annual event. This year will be our second contest and we are a KCBS sanctioned event. The only 'pro' I saw of not sanctioning was keeping the sanctioning fees in the purse as you pointed out. A few of the downsides of not sanctioning last year included lack of advertising, not having the support of a major sanctioning body, the lack of qualified reps onsite to officiate and minimal access to certified judges...just to name a few. The bottom line is we ran a good event, the GC went to Lynchburg and my partner, myself and our team worked our butts off. It was worth it because the cooking teams all seemed to have a great time. It is costing more this year with the sanctioning fees and associated costs but we are looking forward to it more since we will have the support of two great reps and the KCBS
From Scottie, cancersuckschicago.com, winner of the '06 Jack
I know that Tana used to consider them. Obviously if they followed rules of a santctioning body, I would guess that is better. You would still have to meet allof the requirements for the Jack or the AR. And make sure that they have that information in their hands Way before the draw date...
Good luck Jay.
Scottie
This isn't all the responses and I am sure there will be more. Just picked a few out. To read more go to www.bbqforum.com and scroll down. Thanks
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Another response:
From Dr Smoke
drbbq is right. Being a KCBS CBJ for 7 years and BBQ cook for 3, I would not judge a non-sanctioned KCBS BBQ contest, I have pride in being a KCBS CBJ and a KCBS BBQ contest cook.
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Thanks Jay, I saw your posting on the CBBQA and have been following it, but it is good to hear what these people have to say as well.
As for not judging an event just because it's not KCBS, I don't think that would fly, we have too few Cook-offs here in AZ and with gas $$ the way it is, I'm sure all the CBJ's here in AZ would jump at the chance to come out and judge an event.
Great comments though. I look forward to discussing it with Merl this weekend. Jay, maybe you, me, Vince and a few others could set aside an hour to meet and brainstorm with Merl while we are over there, I would really value that. Let me know. ;)
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That would be great to talk to Merl about this. I am still in favor of KCBS sanctioning. I've cooked KCBS contests for over 7 years and I trust the judging and it's system. I know of alot of teams that feel the same way. I hear alot of opinions at contests here in Arizona. I just don't hear them here on the forums. I'm not sure if people just don't have the balls or what. I could name these teams but I won't.
I will now shutup...again...so other people can man-up!!
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I hear alot of opinions ... here in Arizona. I just don't hear them here on the forums. I'm not sure if people just don't have the balls or what. I could name these teams but I won't.
Now this quote I can totally relate to Jay, not just on this KCBS Subject, but in general. I can't tell you how many phone calls, PM's, e-mails and chats I have with people regarding BBQ here in AZ that just never make it onto the forum for everyone to see. Sometimes that is the problem, we need people to Man-Up... ;)
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Yes Mike, this is about THIS subject and not in general. If you want to start another thread.. go for it.
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I haven't been competing to the level and length of time of cookers like Jay and few....... but I judged at Lake Pleasant and since then have been competing........ all these events may not have all the certified judges.. but I do see the same teams over and over again as GC or RC and in the top 5.......... which tells me....... those teams are consistent and do it right...... with or without all certified judges......... so Jay.......... you win with or without certified judges......... so even those not experienced....... still find the quality of your cooking.......
I repeat......... and Mike you have already started to take the lead with your own criteria and style of judging....... and if it doesn't matter being sanctioned by KC to get to jack........... then it's time for AZ bbq judging certification and sanctioning..... you have to start somewhere........ and KC will always be the grand daddy like the rose bowl....... but not all national championships are played there anymore........ Do you know how many people, organizations and bowls said the Fiesta Bowl wouldn't last 3 years because it started here in AZ........... well I'm a native and heard that stuff for years... well look at the Fiesta bowl now..... We have the 4th largest city in the nation........ I don't believe KC is close...... My point...... Let's form our own sanctioning set up for AZ........ if we don't .. somebody will eventually do it....... and we have some great teams here that could help...........with a vision....... we could be recognized........ time to crystalize the vision....
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Yes Mike, this is about THIS subject and not in general. If you want to start another thread.. go for it.
;D ;D ;D
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Chris, with all due respect, that is just not how it works. Sounds easy... but you know everything ain't easy.
Damn, I just can't shutup.
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Yes Mike, this is about THIS subject and not in general. If you want to start another thread.. go for it.
;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ??? ;D ;D
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Jay, don't shut up, this is a great topic and one that we have really been looking forward to discussing. I am really appreciating all the feedback, suggestions and Ideas.
I Truly want to make BBQ events here in AZ as appealing as we can and hopefully some day, making it a destination point like the Jack and Royal, so the only way to do that is to get all the input and go from there.
Will we ever make everyone happy, heck no, but we certainly try our best.
Keep them coming..
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I looked at most of the replies as well and I think that maybe it depends on the prize money.If there is enough to pay for sanctioning and maybe have a 10K prize pool,then ok,but if the prize money total is only 5K then how can you spend most of it on sanctioning,and you wouldn't get any out of state teams for that price either. I can say one thing about Ray Basso's forum,alot of those guys there don't have a clue what they are talking about when they were saying that you can't use KCBS rules and have a unsanctioned contest.If someone wants to do a contest and they do not use any OFFICIAL KCBS score cards,banners,postings,etc. there is nothing the KCBS can do,if all you are saying is "do this contest like you would do if it was a KCBS contest" then KCBS can do nothing,they cannot force anyone to have a no-garnish comp,or change turn-in times to like later in the day,or change entries, or not use the EXACT same scoring system as KCBS, as long as they do not use any OFFICIAL KCBS cards,computer programs,etc. I would like to see ALL Az. contesets KCBS sanctioned,but the reality is that maybe the money just will not be there ,especailly as this economy gets worse,sponsor money is going to get alot harder to come by,just look at all the cancelled contests already this year. I gues maybe the correct question would be,would anyone be interested in paying $500 entry fee for a contest if it would be sanctioned by KCBS and the prize pool was only $5,000 ? Probably few takers :(
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Got three going this week
One unsanctioned
If you want to talk about this subject look me up at Stagecoach
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if it doesn't matter being sanctioned by KC to get to jack........... then it's time for AZ bbq judging certification and sanctioning..... you have to start somewhere........ and KC will always be the grand daddy like the rose bowl....... but not all national championships are played there anymore........ Do you know how many people, organizations and bowls said the Fiesta Bowl wouldn't last 3 years because it started here in AZ........... well I'm a native and heard that stuff for years... well look at the Fiesta bowl now..... We have the 4th largest city in the nation........ I don't believe KC is close...... My point...... Let's form our own sanctioning set up for AZ........ if we don't .. somebody will eventually do it....... and we have some great teams here that could help...........with a vision....... we could be recognized........ time to crystalize the vision....
Why isn't this something to be considered?
If anything, having AZ certified Judges will add a greater degree of legitimacy to the local contests without the KCBS pricetag. Competitors can feel confident that those judging have at least had some formal training, and it may set a trend that could be duplicated elsewhere.
What am I missing in all this? Jay, why isn't it how it all works? Or am I really just THAT naive?
Dean
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Hey Chris and Dean...the world of competition BBQ doesn't work that way. It is what it is...there is no branching off. Not just me talking, that is the way it is.
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I and alot of us need to go through the class to be certified, it can only give us a better idea of what to expect. Still they cant teach your tastebuds to be on the exact page of other judges. I know coming from Missouri I like things a little different from Southwest people. Not saying one is better than the other just different. So I don't think anyone is a WHOLE lot better than others, what makes it exciting on judgement day, anyone can jump up and take something unexpectantly. Regardless there does need to be a certain criteria for judging (no matter who) if the outcome is important to qualifying or earning points which everyone could agree upon.
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I know you have a better understanding Jay......... I don't understand that it is the way it is though........ if one can go to Jack without KC sanction..... if I got that right......... then that would be branching off, wouldn't it? I wouldn't expect any type of respect immediately from KC if AZ formed their own sanction and certified judges.......... Doesn't mean we could not do a respectable job......... IBM once was the giant of computers........ desk tops...... and refused to branch off......... into lap tops........... IBM practically went bankrupt because they thought they were untouchable......... the little guy in the garage decided he could build a completely different type of computer and didn't get any respect......... was told you can't compete with the big boys.......... I think Bill Gates didn't let the big boys stop him..............
I don't know how many teams travel out of state and how many are sanctioned...... haven't been around as long as some of the experienced cookers.... I do know I can travel in state better than I can out of state......... Judging classes for our own certification could become a reality........ we could do our own thing here and if there are enough teams for state chapmionship and certified AZ judges........ and winners have a shot at Jack........ What is wrong with that picture then?
I would sign up...... and I would help....... Leaders take risks and create trails for others to follow.. you can't fly without resistance............ We can make this happen............ I respect you greatly.... but can't buy into the way it is........ If I did...... I wouldn't be in the position I have today..................
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Chris, you have a great way at looking at things, no doubt. You cannot recreate the wheel. It's round and it's not gonna change. That's why it works. You are not going to pave the way into new territory that's already been discovered. Nobody will follow you there. It's like starting a new football league here in Arizona with new rules. How far do you think that will go? Sorry you can't 'buy' into it. But there is no branching off. Yes, you can branch for a contest or two but you can't make it your whole game plan. Your new league will die.
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Well I think we need a new football team here........LOL.......I know what you are saying and it doesn't mean everything would be done AZ cert and not KC...... however..... we already branch off now with the events that we do that are not sanctioned by KC.......... and we get a mixture of judges.......... I believe the events we have now could become more effective with judging per say with our own certification..... because right now they are either KC cert or have no cert..... a better picture would be KC and AZ cert at events we have here when they are not sanctioned by KC..... At least you would find more consistency and educated judges..........
You are right about the wheel......... but it has been modified and recreated throughout time........... different sizes, styles, composition and prices....... and in today's world....... if the wheel breaks........ people just buy a new car........ I prefer to fly if I can't fix it.........LOL..............
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Hey Jay,correct me if I am wrong here,but isn't the Royal the only event you CAN'T get into without winning a KCBS sanctioned event ? I know you can get into the Jack without KCBS sanctioned events,I am not sure about Memphis in May (haven't looked that up ever, I think )I know it is always better to be sanctioned,but what HUGE (Royal,Jack,MIM,)events actually require you to win a KCBS sanctioned contest to get drawn or invited ?
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I know the Oinks got into the Royal by winning a nonsanctioned event. That was about 5 years ago. This is for the invitational. Actually anyone can go to the Royal anytime they want....in the Open.
Just looked it up and it is the same qualifying criteria as the Jack. It doesn't say anything about KCBS sanctioning is mandatory.
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Oh,ok,then really nobody has to have win a KCBS sanctioned event to get into any big events.I know the draw is better with KCBS,and I like having a rep and CBJ's on site,but if the money is not there to do all that then I would rather still have an event,then none at all.
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Hey Jay,correct me if I am wrong here,but isn't the Royal the only event you CAN'T get into without winning a KCBS sanctioned event ? I know you can get into the Jack without KCBS sanctioned events,I am not sure about Memphis in May (haven't looked that up ever, I think )I know it is always better to be sanctioned,but what HUGE (Royal,Jack,MIM,)events actually require you to win a KCBS sanctioned contest to get drawn or invited ?
IBCA GCs go to the Royal and Jack Draw with proclamation/50
The Royal wants teams they are not in Business to turn people away
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I think one of the biggest points that is being ignored here the presence of a neutral and disinterested third party who is responsible for the proper execution of the rules and regulations of the contest. Think whatever you like about that not being important but when you, as a competitor, have even the slightest inkling that something about the contest is fishy, it taints the outcome.
Consider this scenario: Joe Promoter is running a "self-sanctioned" contest and, in addition to his responsibilities as promoter, is also acting as "The Rep" for the event and is overseeing judging, adherence to rules, etc. Joe Promoter is also the sponsor of a team that is cooking in the event. The outcome of the event is that the team that Joe Promoter sponsored wins the GC. Does anyone honestly think that everyone who particpated in the event is not going to question if perhaps something funny might have happened along the way to manipulate the results? The presence of a neutral and disinterested third party repping the event would give all competitors the assurance that everything was done on the level and that the outcome was genuine.
Now, before anyone gets their panties in a wad and thinks I'm pointing fingers, keep in mind that the above scenario has not happened here, to the best of my knowledge. However, you don't wait until your house burns down before you think about getting insurance. Just the opposite. You get the insurance to protect yourself. Having a neutral and disinterested third party as "The Rep" is the insurance policy.
Another thing that I think needs to be stated is that while the money needs to be right at an event, money is not the only consideration that I and others that I have spoken to at length on this topic consider when deciding whether or not to enter an event. Sanctioning has been right at the top of the list and KCBS is the sanctioning body of choice because of the assurance of fairness, the judging process and the fact that it is "The Gold Standard" in the industry.
You can tell me all about how great it would be to have an "Arizona Sanctioning Body" that will be the method used at all contests in the state and I'll tell you that the two biggest promoting entities in the state can't agree to get along so how is it going to be possible to get them to agree on the rules for this new sanctioning body? You can tell me that the new rules will be better and will target all the things that people think are most important and I'll tell you a couple of stories about how the technologies behind 8-track audio tape, Betamax video tape and Apple computers were clearly superior to their rivals but that cassettes, VHS and IBM PC beat them in sales. Why? Because the market chose cassettes, VHS and PC just as the market has chosen KCBS. This is a fact, like it or not.
What I read as the underlying message in this thread is that "self-sanctioned" State Championships are going to be abundant and likely at every contest possible because it serves the best interests of the promoter. And while that may be true in the short run, the contests will always be small because there are way too many contests out there that are going to be KCBS sanctioned and out of state people, given the choice of driving here for a "self-sanctioned" event with no guarantee of a fairly run contest or going to a KCBS event the same distance away, they'll choose the KCBS event the vast majority of the time. And so would I.
The mantra of many financial planners is that people don't plan to fail they simply fail to plan. Look beyond the first year of any of these "self-sanctioned" events and they'll likey never be qualifiers because there won't be enough teams (25) in attendance. They'll just be come backyarders with a decent prize pool. Again, like it or not, you can get on the KCBS bandwagon or wind up with the 8-track and Betamax crowd.
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Hey Chris and Dean...the world of competition BBQ doesn't work that way. It is what it is...there is no branching off. Not just me talking, that is the way it is.
Hey Jay, just playing devil's advocate, but doesn't Florida have FBA??? How did that come about and it seems that they have good draws in thier events. Was IBCA started before or after KCBS??? I really don't know. But others orgs have been started and do very well. It could just be a regional thing, but it does happen.
Just because it is easier to jump on the established org, does not mean that it is imposible to start and grow a new org. However, I think Vince hit it on the head with a neutral third party running the events and consistant judging. This will give the competitors a positive feeling for their efforts.
If I was a betting man, I would bet that most of the bigger events today did not have KCBS sanctioning from the beginning. I bet it had a good prize fund, drew a good field and positive word of mouth led to future growth. With that growth, came additional sponsors, more entries which in turn provided more money to allow for the KCBS Cert. I have not been around the BBQ comp scene for a long time, so I might be wrong.
This is kinda a chicken and the egg conversation, as you need teams to compete to have an event. To get more teams, I would think a larger prize fund is needed in the beginning. To continue to grow that event, I would think that some form of sanctions would be needed.
It is really hard to run, when we (in Arizona BBQ) are just learning to walk. Sorry to say, but Rawhide is an example of what could happen if you try to do too much, too early to please everyone. Two sanctioned events, but the other problems might have given AZ a step or two back not forward.
I might be in the minority, but steady, solid growth, good prize funds and well run professional events will help AZ grow. That might be to all events being KCBS cert or something else. We really need to look at this as a business plan with a 5 year growth plan. (can you see the banker coming out??) The one thing I am sure, is we all need to support the growing BBQ events in AZ. Without teams and judges, there is no chance of growth.
My 2 cents, do with it what you will.
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Yes, Florida does have their own sanctioning body. They also have hundreds of teams. We have maybe 20.
I understand growing contests into bigger ones. But I'm afraid the thought 'why should we pay KCBS when we can give it to the teams' will become the standard thought forever. When do you decide to have a KCBS contest? I not against not having KCBS contests as long as they are planning to grow into one.
This idea of starting and growing a new organization of this nature is kind of mind boggling to me. Do you understand what that would take to become a reality? That is a massive hill to climb with legalities and other big words I can't spell.
I agree with Vince on about everything he said.
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I agree with Vince and Jay to a point,but if all the contests are to be KCBS sanctioned then there may be few and far between Az. events.I know that KCBS is the way to go,probably always will be,but if the money for the sanctioning isn't there,then do you just simply have no Az. contests and only do out of state contests ? Or do you charge $500 entry fee so as to make enough for the sanctioning fee ? In a perfect world and economy the right answer would be to get more sponsor money,but as things stand now,that is unlikely to happen,just wait till this fall and see how many more contest get cancellled,and next spring,wow,really look out ! I am in total agreement about having a 3rd party to oversee events and judging,and to get proper judges who know what and how to judge,thats exactly what I want,but is there then no other way to do it except use KCBS ? What are IBCA fees,I don't have any answers at this time,but if all anyone want to do is KCBS sanctioned events,then we may be spending alot on gas to travel out of state soon :(
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Tim, I am not advocating that every event be KCBS sanctioned. I am, however, strongly behind the idea that only events sanctioned by KCBS or IBCA be designated as State Championships so as to make them very important contests and not diluted by being perhaps the 7th or 8th State Championship of the year.
As for needing every event to be a State Championship so as to please sponsors due to the prestige, that makes no sense. How can something have great prestige when it is common to every event? By making only the KCBS or IBCA sanctioned events State Championships they truly do become prestigious because they are a scarce commodity.
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I have done the organizer head judge your Kid wins the RC and another time wins the GC
LOL Thats why I brought in Kelly to be a IBCA head Judge so I could step back from Judging
At Stagecoach I brought in KCBS and Ben L so i could stay out of the Judging tent
Guys this same topic is in play over here
I see it as
1 Rookie Training/ Teaching Events
2 Events that are low cost and are sanctioned by either the IBCA or some other Body
3 Major Events that are KCBS
We have Reps in state Kelly McIntosh is just a couple short of being a Rep
AZ does not and cant get one for at least two years with the New Reps system stopped and the training period needed
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This is good stuff..............
I believe I can now speak from experience organizing an event....... in conjunction with Mike..... We started the Avondale event in October...... Pulled it off in February........ exceeded our goal.........of raising monies.... and thank you so much for the competitors that made it happen..... without you...... it wouldn't have.......
My point....... when first breached with my district..... many could not visualize the event happening at the level it did... heck... they had no idea about bbqing..... just some guys showing up and using a grill....... well they have a new level of appreciation and they want it again......... I work a full time job running a school........ have another consulting job as well....... and I am sure many of you have jobs..... like Mike........ I have a great appreciation now for Mike.......... I can't even begin to tell you how much time I spent with that event in planning.... etc........ including the military........ and sponsors....... and A$$ kickin and John Deere are no small potatoe sponsors....... but even so....... their demands and time are incredible... and you know what..... If you want their support and MONEY......... you will cater to them...... and working with schools is NOT like working with businesses........... they are very conservative........ So if you want the sponsors to pony up......and place their name on an event........ it better be more than just people showing up to eat bbq....... it needs to be an EVENT......... something special...... so I understand Mike's point about STATE Championship.......... so unless you have been in that saddle......... the ride is not so easy........it is really hard to pound the pavement and raise money..... try it... I agree........ you don't want to water down the state championship...... but if we have certified our own judges...... then we do have a 3rd party situation with judging..... now running the event with a 3rd party could be tougher..... because you will have to pay them too........ MORE MONEY... needed..... Also.......... I found out just how tough it is to cook and run an event.. WOW>..... I don't know how Mike does it and wins......... trust me....... I would pick cooking over running the event and cooking......... and regarding the other association......maybe this is the link for commonality...... because they are in the same boat............ then we have doubled our abilities..............and talents..............
I would be more than happy to start a thread on organizations and their successes......... I do know........ the greatest risk one takes....... IS NOT TAKING IT............... as experienced as those creating dialogue in this thread........ we certainly have the experience and knowledge to create our own destiny......... there use to be just the big 3 car companies...... and no one could touch them.......... so they thought......... how many are there now? Time to place a dent in the universe..... We can do this and still have KC events..........and again...... it sounds like you don't need their blessing to participate in the big events........................ by the way...... the icbs.... is cheaper.......... about $1500......to sanction.....
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One more thing....... regarding the other organization.. maybe this is the link for commonality............ they are in the same boat we are............... this would increase our abilities and talents..................
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Tim, I am not advocating that every event be KCBS sanctioned. I am, however, strongly behind the idea that only events sanctioned by KCBS or IBCA be designated as State Championships so as to make them very important contests and not diluted by being perhaps the 7th or 8th State Championship of the year.
As for needing every event to be a State Championship so as to please sponsors due to the prestige, that makes no sense. How can something have great prestige when it is common to every event? By making only the KCBS or IBCA sanctioned events State Championships they truly do become prestigious because they are a scarce commodity.
Ok,I misunderstood then,I thought that you and Jay were talking about haveing every comp be KCBS sanctioned.I agree about the state championships,they should be IBCA or KCBS sanctioned,there really should only be maybe 2 a year,maybe a spring state championship and a fall championship .Just because the govenor will give proclomations for events I don't think they should all be called "state championships".And if there are only like 2 State Championships per year,that give people time to line up sponsors,money,good asites,advertising,etc. so that there would possibly be greater prize money and the money avalaible for KCBS sanctioning.Just my .02 cents on all of this :)
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Tim, I am not advocating that every event be KCBS sanctioned. I am, however, strongly behind the idea that only events sanctioned by KCBS or IBCA be designated as State Championships so as to make them very important contests and not diluted by being perhaps the 7th or 8th State Championship of the year.
As for needing every event to be a State Championship so as to please sponsors due to the prestige, that makes no sense. How can something have great prestige when it is common to every event? By making only the KCBS or IBCA sanctioned events State Championships they truly do become prestigious because they are a scarce commodity.
Ok,I misunderstood then,I thought that you and Jay were talking about haveing every comp be KCBS sanctioned.I agree about the state championships,they should be IBCA or KCBS sanctioned,there really should only be maybe 2 a year,maybe a spring state championship and a fall championship .Just because the govenor will give proclomations for events I don't think they should all be called "state championships".And if there are only like 2 State Championships per year,that give people time to line up sponsors,money,good asites,advertising,etc. so that there would possibly be greater prize money and the money avalaible for KCBS sanctioning.Just my .02 cents on all of this :)
Yeah, and you know that's my fault. Sometimes I don't explain myself very well. It takes Vince one post to say everything just right and about 10 for me and still can't get it right.
Also, it's the 'we'll certify our own judges' and 'create our own sanctioning body' talk that's got me worried. We're still trying to recover from the Rawhide scandal and there are some that want to go to, well, what they are calling 'the next level'. I think alot more learning experiences are needed before anyone thinks about creating this new level.
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Hello everyone - IBCA would love to sanction more events in the AZ area if we can get past the Rawhide problem.
I have found that most of the teams in the area all want that print out that KCBS gives but to keep it totally blind (as our system with tickets) it would require a lot more manpower than 1 or 2 people. Each ticket would have to be removed from each tray (but only the ticket number could be posted with a score because of not knowing who the container belows to).
I hope that all of you might consider coming over to Silver City and cook in June - I will be the Head Judge at that event.
Good Luck on all of your smokin' adventures.
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Hey all, it looks like that November 8th date will once again fall on NASCAR Weekend.
I don't think Pulte wants to try to compete with NASCAR like we did last year, so maybe moving it up a week to either October 31st - November 1st or the following week of November 14th - 15th. Please let me know your thoughts.
Thanks... ;)
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I like Nov. 14 better than I like Oct. 31. Having an event on Halloween is not a good idea, in my opinion.
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I like Nov. 14 better than I like Oct. 31. Having an event on Halloween is not a good idea, in my opinion.
I agree,Halloween is not good time ???
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Pulte will make the final decision, but I agree, Halloween night is not a good one either.
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Stay away from Halloween...........
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Stay away from Halloween...........
I know, it's just so......spooky.