[Mike (AZBarbeque)]

Hey all, we need to lock down how to score for our Triple Crown of BBQ ToY award this year.

Please provide your thoughts on this as we need to have it locked down by next Friday.

Thanks,

Mike

[Mike (AZBarbeque)]

I believe Thom stated that IBCA now scored through half the field, is this correct Thom?

What do the teams that score below that get for ToY elsewhere?

[VisionQuest220]

I was the Scorekeeper for this race last year so I'll refresh everyone on how it worked.  There were only KCBS contests in the race last year so it was really simple.

Points were assigned based upon the position in which a team finished in the Overall standings as well as each of the categories.  For example, in an event with 20 teams participating, the points were awarded as follows:

1st Place - 20 points
2nd Place - 19 points
3rd Place - 18 points
4th Place - 17 points
.
.
.
20th Place - 1 point

Again, this is very easy to do because the KCBS judging system gives "full field" scoring.

The decision that has to be made is in regards to how points will be given for IBCA contests as that juding system does not have full field scoring, we will only know who made the "final table" and in what place that group finished.

We can use the same philosophy to assign points but the question is should points be assigned to the teams whose final position in the Overall and Category standings is not known?  In other words, should points only be assigned to those teams that made the final table?

[Crash]

For the Triple Crown, I believe that all of the bottom half of the field would at least deserve a 1 for an IBCA contest.

[VisionQuest220]

Crash, if everyone gets the same number of points, what difference would it make vs. giving them 5 points or 2 points or 0 points?

I'm not questioning whether what you are suggesting is right or wrong but rather inquiring about the logic behind the thought.  Can you explain what you have in mind?

[Crash]

Sure Vince.  I'm just saying that if there are 20 IBCA teams, then points could be alloted similar to your KCBS suggestion. Similar being the key word.

Basing this on a 20 team IBCA comp, my suggestion would be that 1st place gets 11 points on down to 2 points for 10th place.  The 11th -20th place team all garnish 1 point. 

And herein lies one of the many issues us cooks have with the IBCA system.  Why should 11th through 20th get penalized and get 0 points when they all "finished 11th"  .

I know it is only one point, but what if...a big what if, a team scores splendidly in 3 categories and tanks another one...ie brisket.  That extra point for their "11th place" could actually move them up as opposed to down for a 0 score. 

I feel, as many others do, that the IBCA judging is a very imperfect system. My only thoughts are that if we have to deal w/ an imperfect system, why cant we control what we can where we can....hell, if we can.

Just my thoughts and appreciate the response Vince.

[VisionQuest220]

Thanks for the explanation.

In answer to one of your questions, the reason teams should get "penalized", if that is how you want to refer to it, is because they didn't finish in a known position.  You're right that the imperfections, (no full field scoring), in the IBCA system create difficulties for points races like this.

I'm not necessarily advocating that we follow along with what the CBBQA does but I think it might help for everyone in on this discussion to know how they dealt with this issue.

In order to keep the playing field between the two types of sanctioning systems level, the CBBQA only gives points to the upper half of the field in both IBCA and KCBS contests even though KCBS has full field scoring.  For example, regardless of sanctioning, if a contest has 20 teams, only the top 10 would get points.  When there is an odd number of teams, like 21, then the top 11 would get points.

Personally, I am not in favor of points being given when an actual finishing position is not known.  I don't mean to be harsh but this isn't T-Ball and we don't have to give something to everyone just for showing up.  I also think that it might make people try harder to win, especially in an IBCA contest, if they know they only get points for being in the top half of the field.

Anyone else have any ideas that we can toss around?

[Mike (AZBarbeque)]

Good stuff, keep it coming..

[Crash]

I agree with a majority of what you say Vince, but this is where some will see the system as flawed....at least as it relates to the Triple Crown.

Let's just say that a team does poorly in their first event of the year, but then learns, excels and finishes well in the other contests throughout the year.  Why would they be scored down on their first IBCA contest when it is a year long "tournament"?  That extra point could possibly make a difference.  I do understand that you disagree with this 1 point thing, but until IBCA can document the entire field's scores, it doesn't seem entirely fair to me.

I do 100% agree with your comment that "I am not in favor of points being given when an actual finishing position is not known".  At the same time how does a team get penalized (there's that word again) for not knowing where they place?  Once again, this is the IBCA way, and we cant change that.

As for the Tball comment.....totally agreed...100%.  These aren't "every kid gets a cookie" events.  I just feel that until IBCA gets a handle on their scoring system, which they wont, its not fair to give a team zero points w/out fully knowing where they actually placed.  Of course this is all related to the Triple Crown.  I have no problem w/ how IBCA scores the top half in a competition (OK maybe I do, but thats a separate issue).

Just my 2 pennies...for what its worth.

[Mrs. McFrankenboo]

Ok, now I get to weigh in.  As we've said before, we are more partial to KCBS because you can see where you placed and what things you need to work on.  At the Lake Pleasant event, we made final table for brisket, which we were thrilled with for our very first comp, BUT what the hell does that mean!  As for points, I feel that those who place in the top 10 should get the most points, final table, which is from 10-20, if I am reading it correctly, should all receive one point because in KCBS, 20th place receives 1 point (is there any points if you are in 50th place??).  Anyone not making final table should receive no points, if in KCBS 50th place receives no points...does that make sense? 

Don't get me started on the Tball thing.  Who the hell gets a tball trophy for 7th place???  It fosters mediocrity and laziness but I'll step off my soapbox now!

[VisionQuest220]

Crash, you make a valid point but keep in mind that you only get to keep your best three scores from the Overall and each Category to make up your Triple Crown score.  Last year there were only three events but this year there will be at least four, possibly more.  My guess is that earning a single point at an event (as opposed to zero points) isn't going to make the difference between 1st and 2nd place at the end of the year.  The teams that finish at the top of the list will all, more than likely, have placed in the top half of the field at each event they are taking a score from in the Overall and Categories.

Again, I think it should be harder to win as opposed to easier to win because this award is supposed to represent excellence, not mediocrity.

Erin, last year each team in the KCBS contests got a point because we knew the full field.  1st Place got the most and last place got 1 point.

Another idea would be to award bonus points for the Grand Champion and the Reserve Grand Champion at each event and these bonus points would apply to that teams total regardless of whether they took the points from that event toward their Overall Triple Crown score.  This would insure that the GC and RGC get something they can keep.  Maybe a 5 point bonus for GC and a 3 point bonus for RGC.  California added the 5 point GC bonus but not the RGC bonus for 2009.  I think that is a mistake.  The 1st place winner in each Category could also get bonus points if we like.  Maybe keep that one to just 3 points as there won't be any points awarded for 2nd place in a category.

Thoughts?

[Mike (AZBarbeque)]

Hey all, we would love to hear your thoughts and ideas on our points system.  We need to get this locked down this week.

Thanks.. 

[Thom Emery]

The reason CBBQA ToY only scores the top half is not sanctioning body related

It was an attempt to help small newer  contests not get run over by the
Big Stagecoach/ Alpine/ Fairfield  contests

A Cook WELL back in the pack would score the same as a top finisher of the small contest
with the full field scoring system. We all know the top teams at a small contest
deserve their points way more than a back of the pack at a huge contest
  Initially  I was the primary proponent of full field.....................

One of the reasons I started the Western Chase was to have a contest
AZ CA and NV would share

[Crash]

We really need more input on this to be able to structure this TOY/Triple Crown points thing effectively.  Personally, I'm willing go w/ what the majority decides...I'm totally cool with that. 

That being said, I still believe that teams that dont make the top half in an IBCA event deserve at least 1 point.  As Vince said, the 1 point most likely will not be a deciding factor..and I 100% agree.  So what's the issue w/ giving them 1 point? If it more than likely wont mean much, what's the harm?

As a majority of us agree, (sorry to beat a dead horse again and again and again) we all prefer KCBS events. Why would we pull away from the KCBS structure and not give TOY points to all competitors...... even if it is an IBCA event?? That 1 point wont mean much to the serious competitors, and most likely wont affect them.

Remember, this is for the TOY points race and not for an individual competition.   

[Thom Emery]

ToY is all about the Head Cook

There is no reason IBCA AZBarbeque events cant score the full field if that helps
Everyone walks and you can have a Dead Ass Last Trophy
The Full Field would take a couple of Min and someone would get teased a bunch
 
But they would live through it

Heck my White Sauce Chicken second to last is one of my most famous finishes
One one ever mentions the GC I won just that dang White Sauce Chicken