AZ Barbeque.com
Smokers, Grills, Pitts & More => Pro Q's => Topic started by: c5rulz on October 19, 2009, 07:18:58 am
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Well yesterday I tried out the new Pro Q excell 20. ^-^
I was very impressed with the quality and finish of the unit. 8)
Since I didn't want to ruin anything important, I cleaned out the freezer and found 2 - 4# beef spoon roasts and about 1 1/2#'s of bonesless pork ribs. Since I was at it I threw in 2 whole chickens too.
In retrospect it appears that I didn't put in enough charcoal. I did use probably 9#'s of Kingsford. I got a chimney roaring good and threw that first in the pan and covered with unlit coal. I let that go about 12 minutes till it was starting good. For good measure 4 chunks of apple wood were added. The water pan was filled about 1/2 full with the water as hot as the tap would go. All the vents on the bottom and top were open.
When I put the food on, the temp ran slowly up to about 250 in 30 minutes. I went up in the orchard to pick apples and came back in 90 minutes to find that the temp had dropped to 200. :mad: I opened up the bottom door to let more air in. (With my old modded EBC that would quickly bring the temp up). This made the temp drop another 10 degrees. ???
By this time the food had been on about 2 hours. I checked the beef and it was almost done, 130 degrees but not browned. The pork being small pieces were done and not too bad, tasty. :P
The chicken was not close to done so I took out the water pan and the temp went up to 375.
Suggestions. I really don't want to run it without water. Is lump that much hotter? :question:
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Wow Ron you have covered so much hum lets see.
1. Try using the Minon method for your charcoal, THE MINION METHOD
The Minion Method for use with the Weber Smokey Mountain (also called the Bullet) cooker:
Fill the charcoal chamber with briquettes. create a pocket in the unlit coals. Spread your wood chunks in the unlit.
in a chimney starter, place about 20 coals. Light and wait until the briquettes turn to ash. put the coals in the unlit pocket
Assemble the cooker. Leave the top and bottom vents open until you achieve the temp you are looking for.
As far as water I don't use water try putting in some other type of heat holding thing like claypot saucers, sand, fire bricks rocks what floats you boat.
Hopfully this will help for the next time. Crash bis much more familiar with fire control on these Q20's then I am though.
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Thanks AZqer.
I know what the minion method is, however I can't see how that could create more heat than having the whole basket just ablazin prior to sealing the thing up.
Is lump much hotter? :question:
Ron
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Yes, typically lump burns hotter. I'm guessing there's another problem. There are alot of people using Pro Q's, and they haven't had that problem. Hopefully, one of them will chime in. I have WSM's and haven't had that problem.
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I never use water...or anything else in the lower pan for that matter...just cover it in foil to help with the clean up.
I put water in the pan once...it sucked for me and I never did it again.
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Yes Lump can be hotter but as stated there is something else going on My team mates also use a Q20 and they also do not use water.
Just my .02
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I have used water and I have used sand. Either is OK, although I prefer water. I have an Excel20 and the only time I had a problem getting it up (temperature, that is) was when I was cooking at about 8200 feet elevation. Down here in Tucson (about 2500 feet elevation) I have not had any problem getting it to temp or keeping it at temp for over 5 hours.
Do make sure the top vent is open. Keep it open the whole time.
I usually use Kingsford Blue, so using lump probably wouldn't make a big difference. And I use the minion method (using about 30 lit coals and a completely full charcoal basket) and the temp is usually over 200 within 15 minutes. After putting the meat on, when it gets to around 230, I close the bottom vents down to 1/4 to 1/3 open and she just hums away.
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I don't use anything in the water pan either. 3/4 bag of Royal Oak Lump lasts around 10 hours for me.
I would not have expected the chickens to be done in two hours - I think mine take closer to 4, although it's been awhile.
Question - are you sure the thermometer is accurate? The one in my lid usually hovers around 200-210 while my Maverick registers 220-230 at grate level.
Why don't you want to run without water?
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Question - are you sure the thermometer is accurate? The one in my lid usually hovers around 200-210 while my Maverick registers 220-230 at grate level.
Why don't you want to run without water?
Good questions!!
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In retrospect it appears that I didn't put in enough charcoal. I did use probably 9#'s of Kingsford.
I'm with you, I did a cook over the weekend and the PROQ was mano-a-mano with a 22.5" WSM. While I'm still on the low end of the learning curve with the PROQ, I will say that you cannot feed it enough charcoal ever. I couldn't get the thing higher than ~230, problematic since this was my chicken smoker at the end of my cook. And there was copious amounts of Kingsford in there, vents wide open, even opened up the lower doors...hovered about 200 for most of the cook...
Good for smoking bacon and hams though!! :)
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I guess my question at this point is, what is the difference between the Pro Q and the WSM? I've never looked that close at a Q, but isn't it a copy of a WSM? Would something like a water heater blanket help? Where are the Q owners?
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The Pro Q owners are all in bed because their cookers are holding temp. ;)
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The Pro Q owners are all in bed because their cookers are holding temp. ;)
Except for the two that aren't holding temps. ::)
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I don't own either. Just trying to start something between the two rival camps. I like getting up every two hours with my smoker. :(
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Ron - We've got our Pro Q 20's pretty well dialed in at this point. Here is what we do.
1a) For a longer cook (butts, brisket) we load up the entire basket almost full to the top with unlit Bluebag K. We then hollow out the middle as best we can. There will be unlit K above the top of the basket around the sides of the hollowed-out middle. We then place a full Weber chimney of lit K coals into the hollowed-out middle. We then use the chimney to actually mold the shape of the lit and unlit K coals into an even mound (it is kind of an intricate process). We then add our cooking wood, usually 3-4 chunks depending on size.
Next we add a foiled water pan and fill it up about 1/3 of the way with the hottest water you can get your hands on. We use boiling water or if we're feeling lazy we use the hottest tap water we can find. We let everything settle for about 5-10 minutes and then the butts or briskeys go on. Temps for us are usually right around the 225-240 mark at the start. We will then adjust vents accordingly to get to our optimum temp.
1b) For a mid-range cook time (ribs) we basically do almost the same thing. We will reduce the unlit K coals to about 3/4 of a basket and add about 3/4 lit chimney using the same hollowed-out (MM) method). We add wood the same way and tend to use less water in the foiled water pan, but still make sure the H2O is hot. Temps for this cook also mimic the longer cook for us.
1c) For a fast cook (chx) we will line the bottom of the charcoal basket with unlit. We then drop a fully lit, overflowing chimney of coals into the basket and spread them around evenly. We then add our wood and put on a foiled water pan. We do not add any water for this cook at all.
2) Of the few times that we have had trouble getting the temps up, we have taken out the water pan, ditched the water in the pan, and returned the pan to the smoker. This has always allowed the temps to come up, and in some cases higher than we wanted.
I think the key to using water is to use hot water. I really believe this. It is really more of a scientific thing than anything else really. If you use cold water in the pan, the coals (fuel) will need to use more energy to get that water hot....energy that would be better used to cook your food and maintain a consistent temp.
3) Lump has always cooked hotter in my opinion. I dint like using it, because I have too much trouble controlling the temperature spikes. Some people swear by it because, hey, it works great for them. I myself have just gotten use to the consistency that the standard Bluebag K offers me.
I can say one positive thing about lump though. I have only cooked using the Ono brand of lump once. It was the first lump that I have used that I have actually really liked. I didn't use it on purpose, but because it what was given to me to cook a bachelor party. For that cook, I used one 20 lb bag of Ono for the entire cook and also used the third Excel 20 stacker for the first time. If I was to ever use the third stacker again for a cook, it would be with the Ono brand of lump. Good stuff and you can get it from our club sponsor BBQ Island.
4) The lid-mounted thermometer just really isn't going to tell you what's going on temp-wise two levels down. I can see the pros for it if you are hanging something by the hooks up top, but even that would be sketchy at best. We like to use the Maverick E-73's at each grate level to get an accurate reading.
Mark - You had asked about the differences between the Pro Q and the WSM.
1) Pro Q has a hanging bar and meat hooks for a vertical cook.
2) Pro Q has eyelets at each grate level that allows a thermometer to probe the temp at each level.
3) Each Pro Q stacker (section) has handles on each side to allow for easy access.
4) Water pan on the Pro Q is much bigger than the older WSM's (I have no idea how big the newer WSM water pans are)
5) Pro Q has latches that allow you to access one level without having to remove grates.
6) The WSM is much more popular and has won a lot more awards than the Pro Q.
The WSM and the Pro Q are very similar cookers, but the Pro Q definitely has more features. An overwhelming number of Excel 20 users love the cooker. I know we enjoy cooking on our Pro Q's much more than on our WSM. Of all of my contacts with Pro Q users, I have only heard of one person that did not like the product.
Hope that helps. If you have any other questions, post them up and someone will surely get back to you.
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I don't own either. Just trying to start something between the two rival camps. I like getting up every two hours with my smoker. :(
We're still up and babysitting ours during comps. We'll most likely have to continue to go that route until we get a Stoker or a Guru.
Quite honestly, we have never had temp issues at night. We do occasionally see the temps going down at around 8am or 9 ish on a competition Saturday. It's a really easy fix.
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what crash said.... I have both pro q and wsm.... I don't use water.. it has rocks in it..... I will tell you.. the wsm was easier to dial in and more consistent.. however.. I have used the pro q more than the wsm to increase my proficiency and now feel I can do the same job on both..... it just took me longer with the pro q...
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Crash, my comment about the two cookers was only that I've never seen a Pro Q that I know of. I guess I need to change that. One thing that I do that works with either cooker, when I do my coals, I put a tin can with the top and bottom cut out,(one of the big ones for beans and the like). I place it in the center of the coal grate and pour the unlit charcoal around it. I then pour the lite charcoal in the can, and with a pair of channel locks, pull the can out. Now that was long winded.
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Crash, my comment about the two cookers was only that I've never seen a Pro Q that I know of. I guess I need to change that. One thing that I do that works with either cooker, when I do my coals, I put a tin can with the top and bottom cut out,(one of the big ones for beans and the like). I place it in the center of the coal grate and pour the unlit charcoal around it. I then pour the lite charcoal in the can, and with a pair of channel locks, pull the can out. Now that was long winded.
(http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr23/crash55r/ProQExcel002.jpg)
This is what a Pro Q Excel 20 looks like with three stackers. It's about 5 feet tall with a 20" circumference. Note that the legs are the older legs and not the reinforced legs. We have never had a problem at all concerning the legs/collapsing smoker.
I like the tin can idea. May have to try that out someday.
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The tin can idea just makes it quicker and easier doing the Minon.
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Here's something I found on the Weber site about firing up the WSM;
http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/fireup1.html
It talks about different variations of the Minon Method.
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I don't use anything in the water pan either. 3/4 bag of Royal Oak Lump lasts around 10 hours for me.
Question - are you sure the thermometer is accurate? The one in my lid usually hovers around 200-210 while my Maverick registers 220-230 at grate level.
Why don't you want to run without water?
I am going to order a maverick et-73 soon. I checked one of the probe holes with a probe type dial thermometer and it was pretty close to what the temp gage on the Pro Q said.
As to why not running without water......because it's a water pan and I didn't think about it. ::)
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Ron - We've got our Pro Q 20's pretty well dialed in at this point. Here is what we do.
1a) For a longer cook (butts, brisket) we load up the entire basket almost full to the top with unlit Bluebag K. We then hollow out the middle as best we can. There will be unlit K above the top of the basket around the sides of the hollowed-out middle. We then place a full Weber chimney of lit K coals into the hollowed-out middle. We then use the chimney to actually mold the shape of the lit and unlit K coals into an even mound (it is kind of an intricate process). We then add our cooking wood, usually 3-4 chunks depending on size.
Next we add a foiled water pan and fill it up about 1/3 of the way with the hottest water you can get your hands on. We use boiling water or if we're feeling lazy we use the hottest tap water we can find. We let everything settle for about 5-10 minutes and then the butts or briskeys go on. Temps for us are usually right around the 225-240 mark at the start. We will then adjust vents accordingly to get to our optimum temp.
1b) For a mid-range cook time (ribs) we basically do almost the same thing. We will reduce the unlit K coals to about 3/4 of a basket and add about 3/4 lit chimney using the same hollowed-out (MM) method). We add wood the same way and tend to use less water in the foiled water pan, but still make sure the H2O is hot. Temps for this cook also mimic the longer cook for us.
1c) For a fast cook (chx) we will line the bottom of the charcoal basket with unlit. We then drop a fully lit, overflowing chimney of coals into the basket and spread them around evenly. We then add our wood and put on a foiled water pan. We do not add any water for this cook at all.
2) Of the few times that we have had trouble getting the temps up, we have taken out the water pan, ditched the water in the pan, and returned the pan to the smoker. This has always allowed the temps to come up, and in some cases higher than we wanted.
I think the key to using water is to use hot water. I really believe this. It is really more of a scientific thing than anything else really. If you use cold water in the pan, the coals (fuel) will need to use more energy to get that water hot....energy that would be better used to cook your food and maintain a consistent temp.
3) Lump has always cooked hotter in my opinion. I dint like using it, because I have too much trouble controlling the temperature spikes. Some people swear by it because, hey, it works great for them. I myself have just gotten use to the consistency that the standard Bluebag K offers me.
I can say one positive thing about lump though. I have only cooked using the Ono brand of lump once. It was the first lump that I have used that I have actually really liked. I didn't use it on purpose, but because it what was given to me to cook a bachelor party. For that cook, I used one 20 lb bag of Ono for the entire cook and also used the third Excel 20 stacker for the first time. If I was to ever use the third stacker again for a cook, it would be with the Ono brand of lump. Good stuff and you can get it from our club sponsor BBQ Island.
4) The lid-mounted thermometer just really isn't going to tell you what's going on temp-wise two levels down. I can see the pros for it if you are hanging something by the hooks up top, but even that would be sketchy at best. We like to use the Maverick E-73's at each grate level to get an accurate reading.
Mark - You had asked about the differences between the Pro Q and the WSM.
1) Pro Q has a hanging bar and meat hooks for a vertical cook.
2) Pro Q has eyelets at each grate level that allows a thermometer to probe the temp at each level.
3) Each Pro Q stacker (section) has handles on each side to allow for easy access.
4) Water pan on the Pro Q is much bigger than the older WSM's (I have no idea how big the newer WSM water pans are)
5) Pro Q has latches that allow you to access one level without having to remove grates.
6) The WSM is much more popular and has won a lot more awards than the Pro Q.
The WSM and the Pro Q are very similar cookers, but the Pro Q definitely has more features. An overwhelming number of Excel 20 users love the cooker. I know we enjoy cooking on our Pro Q's much more than on our WSM. Of all of my contacts with Pro Q users, I have only heard of one person that did not like the product.
Hope that helps. If you have any other questions, post them up and someone will surely get back to you.
Crash, you are da man!!!!!!!!1 Thanks
I am going to print this and put in on the wall and call it the gospel according to Crash. :D
Thanks again.
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I have been thinking about the water in the water pan. >:D
I might not know much about BBQing but I do know some physics. A gram of water takes one cal/gram to heat water from 0 to 100celcius, (boiling point) Once the water begins to boil it takes 540 cal/gram to convert to steam.
http://www.ask.com/bar?q=energy+in+converting+water+to+steam+&page=1&qsrc=0&ab=0&title=MODERN+ALCHEMIST&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.com%2FCapeCanaveral%2FHangar%2F9825%2Ficesteam.html&sg=2S8DfD%2BzsLry3bq4mTPIYDg2FCpOO0EUCJ285cnAgOY%3D&tsp=1256050484127
So we can conclude 2 things;
1. As long as there is water in the pan, the temp of pan is 212 F and will greatly cool the exhaust gas from the fire as it passes over the pan.
2. Once the water begins to boil, a very large amount of energy is being used to make steam and not heat the interior of the cooker. If the vessel was pressurized which it is not, that would be another issue.
So maybe an empty pan is the way to go, or just put in something that would act as a heat sink to modulate temp.
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So maybe an empty pan is the way to go, or just put in something that would act as a heat sink to modulate temp.
I have used water and have used sand in my Excel20 and did not notice any material difference, other than having sand in it made it very heavey to lift off to add charcoal after 5-6 hours. So I have just quit using sand and use water, about half a pan full, hot. Besides being a heat sink, it helps keep the meat more moist. But I would probably not use any water if I were just looking to roast something, at hgiher temps, instead of slow smoking.
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Something else to think about; virtually all the smokers/cookers designed to use charcoal as the primary heat source, have some provision for water/steam to be part of the process. So, not being a rocket scientist, but knowing what charcoal is, what's left after the wood has been divested of it's moisture, the water pan was engineered for a purpose.
My two cents
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...the water pan was engineered for a purpose.
My theory on the water pan is that it was designed to mitigate leaky fire boxes that allowed the temp to climb too high in the smoker. That, and the average guy cooking in his backyard doesn't want to have to monitor airflow and track smoker temperature. The water pan allows a set-it and forget-it approach, no matter how leaky or wide open you have the firebox vents.
My approach is that if my fire is getting too hot, it must be getting too much air. Too much air means a leak, so I find and plug/tape/seal the leak and regain control of the air intake. On the bullet smokers, there are only a handful of places air can get in, and they are all easy to seal. On my pro-q, i have two of the bottom dampers sealed shut and the doors taped. I found that without water in the pan, I could easily control and maintain low temps with just one vent.
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Good write-up Crash, that will help a lot!
I will say that the WSM must be a thicker gauge metal or something as it does not need as much charcoal even though the WSM is larger. Although I've heard reports about the thermometer being a little iffy too, maybe I should test that before I burn my boiled ribs LOL!!
The ProQ definitely has some neat features like the bar across the lid for using bacon hangers, smoking little piggies, sausages, etc. The modular setup with additional stackers is cool too, I just need to practice more and get to know it better.
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Well, sure enough-I took the lid thermometer apart and boiling water reads 190. Time for a Maverick I think.
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Don't know if the Maverick's are available locally, but you can get one out of Kansas City for $45.00 shipped.
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I got mine at Cabela's. I love the remote, I can be in the house, even in bed, and read the temps of my smoker and meat. Plus, the temp alarms alert me if the smoker or meat gets out of whatever range I set it at.
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I got mine at Cabela's. I love the remote, I can be in the house, even in bed, and read the temps of my smoker and meat. Plus, the temp alarms alert me if the smoker or meat gets out of whatever range I set it at.
How much did you have to give at Cabela's. I love mine, thinking about a second one.
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It was like 40-50 bucks, I think. Somewhere around there. It's been worth it so far.
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Thanks, I like mine so much, I'm thinking of a second one.
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I got mine at Cabela's. I love the remote, I can be in the house, even in bed, and read the temps of my smoker and meat. Plus, the temp alarms alert me if the smoker or meat gets out of whatever range I set it at.
Hmmm... That would come in handy! I have one with a pager but haven't used it yet...