[smitty250]

So with that logic Mark - do you always grade ribs down if they are presented in a row together? You can't see the sides of them right?

No offense Mark I think you are a great guy but when you make comments like that and this one from an older post:

"Quote from: AzScott on October 27, 2011, 11:34:32 am
Can I just say how thrilled I am that we don't have to use parsley this weekend?  Then again, I have no idea how I would present it any other way.

Scott, I'll grade you up for no green shit."

This takes the integrity out of the judging!!

I personally think that this BCS turn-in structure should be like IBCA - piece of foil on the bottom of the box and that's it!!

[BBQCZAR]

So with that logic Mark - do you always grade ribs down if they are presented in a row together? You can't see the sides of them right?

No offense Mark I think you are a great guy but when you make comments like that and this one from an older post:

"Quote from: AzScott on October 27, 2011, 11:34:32 am
Can I just say how thrilled I am that we don't have to use parsley this weekend?  Then again, I have no idea how I would present it any other way.

Scott, I'll grade you up for no green shit."

This takes the integrity out of the judging!!

I personally think that this BCS turn-in structure should be like IBCA - piece of foil on the bottom of the box and that's it!!

Amen,I agree 100% !

[RudedoggAZ]

I'm KCBS certified and have judged approximately 28 events.  Does that make me a better than the person who is judging for the 2nd or 3rd time?  Maybe just a little.  This whole judging thing is making it more difficult for me to want to judge anymore. I , and I'm sure most of the other judges, use the criteria established by BCS and KCBS but that does not mean we are going to be perfect.  In my opinion more emphasis needs to be placed on presentation.  Dean hit right on when he said you don't need garnish but it does make the turn-in box look better. Remember presentation carries as much weight in the scoring as taste and tenderness.  

I hear ya... I have cooked about the same amount of contests and this whole judging thing makes me not want to cook anymore. I love cooking and competing at every event. My ONLY point was that the scoring was very inconsistent. I know and understand judging is subjective on many levels, region, state, sanctioning body, etc. I would have thought something constructive would have come from this. Us cooks can defend just as much as judges and in this situation I feel the scores had too big of gaps. I don't know why I feel bad for expressing my opinion on this. We    pay 10,000 + dollars a year to do this and I feel I have the right to say this... You have the right to take it for what its worth to you. This was in no way directed at anyone specific. Just my thoughts as everyone else had posted theirs

[Mike (AZBarbeque)]

We do appreciate the feedback, comments & suggestions & will discuss them all in detail at our meeting next week to recap.

We are not against the ideas, we actually like them and will use them as constructively as we can to continue improving the BCS.. 

[route66]

I have taken a couple days to reflect my opinion on the BCS Judging scores. Q2U and David rocked this competition and the Dream Team of Little Miss BBQ & Steel City did a fantastic cook. Way to go girls!

Upon seeing the scores I was perplexed as I knew the quality I turned in was as good if not better than any turn in before. Looking at my chicken scores the judges ranged from 9 9 9 to 6 6 6 with 30.000 from judge 1 being the lowest score among all competitors this judge scored and 45.000 from Judge 6 being the second highest this judge  scored among all competitors. A 15 point difference is hard to justify and even harder to figure when judged the worst tasted by one and one of the best by another judge. Looking at the other teams scores it seems like 30% had the same large scoring variance which has me thinking one or two tables had a couple very tough judges. This is like playing Russian Roulette with turn ins.

I have to admit when I first looked at the BCS Scoring I thought the 1-10 scoring would be more precise than the 1-8 of others and should represent a more refined score for competitors. After only seeing two BCS events I now have doubts and concerns as the scoring seems to be less consistent with the added numbers and maybe the consistency lies in the judges lack of understanding the scoring implications. I agree with Crash and Mike that the overall scores did represent the top ten as I did taste many of their products which was great and deserving of their awards. I like many others looked at our scores and was taken back with the abundance of 5s and 6s alongside 9s in our scores as a slam as my product was good, maybe not the best but better than somewhat below average as scored.   I have judged a few competitions tasting some amazing BBQ and have yet to taste only a couple who were not better than average. A 6 is abysmal and a 5 is a number which stands for your food sucks.

I am sure as the BCS matures, measures and education will be a key to a more consistent judging process. Mike always puts on great, fun events drawing some of the best teams for superb competition and for the BCS to succeed fair and consistent judging needs to be of a priority. 

[Dennis McGrath]

A wise man, Jay Benedict told me at my 3rd event not to try to make sense of the scores, because they never will. It's hard or me to judge the scoring system without taking a class or judge at a competition, it's our goal to take a class from all sanctioning bodies that we compete in.

Mike, you always put on a great event. Sherry and I had a great time, looking forward to more comps.

[Trailhound]

Yes, I am very disappointed in my scores.  But finding out some of the answers may tell me whether I need to change how I am cooking / presenting or whether the scoring was just a fluke of getting judged by the wrong table of judges.

Mike P
As for changing the way you cook if you know you turned in better product then what the scores indicate then hole true to your self and don't change any thing.
I know the product I turned in was better then the scores so I'm not going to change a thing.
I have talk to a team that is very well knew and has a lot of good finished they feel the same way as I do.

My 2 cents

[Mike P in Tucson]

Thanks Timm,

I guess the worst thing, particularly for new / inexperienced teams, is the complete lack of any feedback.  Judges give a 5 for something and don't even say why.  Out of our 4 meats, there were only two comments, on the chicken turn in.  I mean, if a judge doesn't like the ribs sauced or doesn't like the sauce (too sweet, too spicy, etc), he / she should say so.  Did they not like the pork because it wasn't sauced (or because it was), or for some other reason?

Just talking to myself here -- I wonder if the very experienced CBJs want to show HOW experienced they are and HOW tough they can be, looking to find the slightest thing wrong, so they can impress impress the other judges with their vast knowledge.  I know there is no discussion DURING the judging of a particular met, but there is plenty right after turning in the sheets.

[Trailhound]

There are comment card Mike is still going though them and will be sending them out.

You never can tell what the judges like or dislike, the two contest that I did before The Orlean I finished in the top 5 in ribs. At The Orleans I came in 91th. out of 95 team with the same recipe.
The very next weekend I cooked in Boulder City and came in 5th. in ribs.     

If I was you I would not change a thing after just one contest.

Thanks

[Mark]

I wonder if the very experienced CBJs want to show HOW experienced they are and HOW tough they can be, looking to find the slightest thing wrong, so they can impress impress the other judges with their vast knowledge.

Mike, I think you'd find the exact opposite to be true. Those of us who have years of competition and judging under our extra long belts truly appreciate the hard work and skill that is put in to properly cook Que and reflect it in our scoring. Nobody compares scores. The cards are gathered upside down and turned in before any discussion. Only then is there chatting and it usually is along the lines of: "Whaddya think? My favorites was that second entry...and the fifth one was good, too." I've never seen experienced judges pontificate and we never compare numerical scores either.

[AZWildcat]

With all due respect to the powers that be..... Why weren't the comment cards attached to my score sheet electronically or physically? Why am I stewing over this almost a week later? I got a 5 and 9 in the same box and still don't know why.

[Mike (AZBarbeque)]

With all due respect to the powers that be..... Why weren't the comment cards attached to my score sheet electronically or physically? Why am I stewing over this almost a week later? I got a 5 and 9 in the same box and still don't know why.

We started putting comments in on the Chicken Category & because there were so many of them, by the time we got them all in, we already had all the score cards from the Ribs & Pork waiting for us.  We decided at that point to skip the comments until after the event so we could get all the scores in.

Unfortunately, since the event ended, my "Real" jobs have kept me slammed & I have not had a chance to finish up the comments.  My Goal is to have them all done by tomorrow night & e-mailed out to all the head cooks.

Sorry for the inconvenience, the comments are not on separate pieces of paper that can be attached to score sheets, they are all on one sheet, so one judge could have comments for 6 teams on each card, we physically have to go through them & input them.  We will look at changing this for future events since it is such an undertaking.  It was nice to have it all right there & printed out for teams, but since there were so many comments, it might be easier to go back to the separate paper method..

[AzScott]

Just talking to myself here -- I wonder if the very experienced CBJs want to show HOW experienced they are and HOW tough they can be, looking to find the slightest thing wrong, so they can impress impress the other judges with their vast knowledge.  I know there is no discussion DURING the judging of a particular met, but there is plenty right after turning in the sheets.

Mike, typically very experienced CBJ's are the toughest judges, cooks are the harshest, and newbies are the easiest.  If I had my choice for honest feedback it would be experienced CBJ's every time.  The ones with experience have the most experience to draw from so I think their scores are the most valuable but at the same time they know what is average and what is extremely good.  Most cooks that judge just for the experience are comparing their stuff to what they are judging and can be overly critical since they are tearing apart that entry for each minute detail they consider.  Newbies are living a culinary eating fantasy and they are going to think most everything is really good to exceptional.

[azchef1]

As a competitor and a KCBS certifed judge, I did judge this event, and know that we all took this extremly serious. It was also announced just how hard all the teams work, their investment of time, and money, and just how important the judging process is. There is no talking during scoring, comparing numerical scores, nothing inapropriate. We all know as competitors, you never know where you are going to land. If you are expecting top 10 at every event....Then be prepared for some dissapointment, because if you dont know specifically what went on in that tent with your specific entry, its a crapshoot! Different events, different judges...different scores. Mike and Nancy's system, rotation of tables, boxes, etc... aids in eliminating some risk of you getting the so called" tough judges" scoring all your boxes. I will be honest, I scored very few above an 8... The variances of scores may be because 1 person got a piece they couldnt eat for some reason, and the rest of the judges samples were ok. And thats proof this system works, that the other judges aren't being influenced by one problem at a table.  Hopefully once all cooks receive their comments there will be a better understanding. I wrote good and bad comments because as a cook I use the information and consider it constructive so I can only get better. As a Chef I learn something new all the time. I've been in the culinary industry for 25 years, trust me not everyone is always going to like your food or feel the same way we feel about it after cooking it and putting our heart and soul into it.            Nancy and Mike, It was a great event. 

[AZWildcat]

You are dead wrong Tracey. EVERYONE ALWAYS LOVES MY FOOD,  ALWAYS! ITS A SCIENTIFIC FACT.