[Mike (AZBarbeque)]

Hey Mike first off awesome event as always.
Was there any comment cards and if so are we going to get them?
I feel if you get scored a 5 or even a 6 there should be a comment card telling us why?

Can I ask was there any judges pulled to the side and talk to about their low scoring like I have seen done at other contests?

As much as some of us complain we all still love you and what you do for our sport and look forward to your next event.

Yes, comments are still being processed, I just didn't have time to input them all there.  I will e-mail all those out this week.

Yes, a few of the Judges were pulled aside & asked about their scoring and they continued to score tough after the talks.  We can't make judges score any way in particular and we wouldn't want to either, that would ruin the integrity of the judging.

My Team & I enjoy doing it as well and for our 3rd major event with this sanctioning, we believe it is going well.  No other Sanctioning body started off without some road bumps & we have ours as well, but we are working on them as a team after each event and I truly believe we will have a great system in place for the long run.

Thanks as always for the feedback, we do value & appreciate it.. 

[BrianL]

We also HIGHLY Recommend all the Head Cooks at a minimum take the BCS Judging class as well so you all can see & hear exactly what is taught to the Judges..   

Heck, even come out & judge an event to get the full experience.  I've done it 3 times and let me tell you, judging has really opened my eyes to quite a bit of the vast differences in the way teams cook BBQ.

One of the guys on my team took the BCS Judging class a couple weeks ago and I honestly think that helped us. I had him do the testing on each meat before we decided what went in the box and the scores he suggested we would get on each piece turned out to be pretty much dead on. I will likely try and take the next one. Hopefully the comments clarify things for people. I know that the feedback we received in Safford went a long way toward improving our scores.

Heck...I could complain about the 6s that I received for a few things (that I also had 9s on) as having kept us out of reserve since we missed that by a point and a half...but I think I've realized that it is what it is...sometimes there will just be bad days (like our last place at the pork comp at Chester's in July). It's blind judging, so it's not like any one team is being singled out. Everyone goes through the same judging. I haven't actually done a KCBS event on my own yet...is the judging really that much more consistent?

[RudedoggAZ]

One of the guys on my team took the BCS Judging class a couple weeks ago and I honestly think that helped us. I had him do the testing on each meat before we decided what went in the box and the scores he suggested we would get on each piece turned out to be pretty much dead on. I will likely try and take the next one. Hopefully the comments clarify things for people. I know that the feedback we received in Safford went a long way toward improving our scores.

Heck...I could complain about the 6s that I received for a few things (that I also had 9s on) as having kept us out of reserve since we missed that by a point and a half...but I think I've realized that it is what it is...sometimes there will just be bad days (like our last place at the pork comp at Chester's in July). It's blind judging, so it's not like any one team is being singled out. Everyone goes through the same judging. I haven't actually done a KCBS event on my own yet...is the judging really that much more consistent?

Sign up for December and I guess we will see... Judging is always wrong unless you win don't know what to think anymore, guess its time to change some things up.

[145 grill]

This being my first event, I also wondered about the scores I received.  They went from 5 to 9 on the meats.  I took this as being that the judging was subjected to each individual judges taste.  I thought this was normal, but after reading the prior post it is clear that this wasn't normal.  I too plan on taking a judging course to see what is expected on each meat entry. I was very estatic with my finish for a first time event, I just hope it was a true result on how my team did, it gave me lots of encouragement and that my practice had paid off.  I had a great time and hope to compete in more events and just continue to improve and hopefully soon I will hear my team called. Thanks again Mike to you and your crew, this was a very enjoyable event for me and my team.

[smitty250]

Sign up for the December KCBS event and you will find out.

[AzScott]

I think the issue lies with the fact that there is a 5 point spread between average and outstanding and that is too many in my opinion and it's the reason for the low scores.  In KCBS a 7 is average with only an 8 or 9 being higher.  In BCS 6 is average with a 7,8, 9, & 10 being higher.  I'm a believer that a 7 should be the baseline score so there isn't as big of a spread for good entries. 

Anyone who has competed knows that a 5 or 6 is deadly to finishing well.  I've always believed jthe following scores translate to the following, a 9 should finish at the top of the field, an 8 should finish in the top half, a 7 is average and  should finish in the middle, while anything less should be near the bottom.  That's what I think when I analyze our scores.

Anyways, Mike it was a fun event and I have seen crazy scores at numerous events so it truly is one of those things that isn't going to be perfect. 

[desertdog]

Wow, this is the first time I have ever heard about teams complaining about the judging!   

I have judged countless events both, IBCA and KCBS.  I have also competed in countless events, both IBCA and KCBS.  The common denominator at ALL of those events was that there was some complaining about the judging. 

BBQ judging is subjective.  No matter how "seasoned" the judges are, I know from being in the tent that judges judge in odd ways. I know that the goal is to have all judges grading with the same mindset, but the truth is, it will never happen.

Mike has run both KCBS and IBCA events and knows the best ways to make sure the teams are given the best shot at getting as fair a score as possible.  Double blind judging, mixing turn-in boxes so that all 4 entries end up on different tables each time, sorting the judges so that seasoned judges are spread over all the tables equally, reiterating the judging criteria at the judges meeting the day of the event,  making sure the table captains are managing their tables to ensure each entry is presented and distributed in a timely and equal manner. 

It has always been a mystery to me why teams don't go through the certified judging class, whether it is KCBS, IBCA or the newly formed BCS.  You can complain about the judges all you want, but if you haven't been certified yourself, how can you begin to criticize the judging? 

I do agree that it should be mandatory of all judges that give any score of 6 or below to fill out a comment card. We had some strange scores as well this weekend, but it sure isn't the first time, and I highly doubt it will be the last.  As long as what I turn in is based on someone else's opinion and not by a unit of measure, I have to accept what they give me and move on.

[punkndrublic760]

Thanx Mike for throwing the event...you made it a fun experience.  Congrats to all those that did well!!  Lookin fwd to seeing you all again at the next comp!!  

[Crash]

Dean pretty much nailed it 100%.  I totally agree.

8 of the top 10 teams are proven cooks and totally deserve to be in that top 10.  The other two are names I just don't recognize, so no disrespect.  At EVERY event we've cooked, judging has also been complained about and there are always very good teams in the bottom half.  It happens, and it isn't going to change.  Not now, not ever. 

Sometimes what you turn in and think is phenomenal really isn't in the eyes of the judges.  We turned in a brisket entry at the KCBS Tucson event last year that we were sure was a top 10......it was DAL.  A solid DAL. As awesome as that top 5 call is, you sometimes have to be prepared to hear the news that your product wasn't up to snuff. 

In the end you can criticize judging all you want but keep in mind: you picked the meat, you trimmed the meat, you chose the rub, you chose the injection, you chose the smoke, you chose the cook temp, you chose the internal temp and you chose the presentation.  Judges have 3 factors to judge on, so right off the bat the odds are stacked against you.

Probably the best point in this entire BCS judging discussion is that all teams were judged by the same set of judges using double blind judging and table rotation.  It is what it is.

Best of luck to all of you guys out at the December event.

[desertdog]

By the way, if you think you have some controversy now, wait til the December event when you have two KCBS contests in two days.  I did Stagecoach 3-4 years ago, got 5th or 6th on brisket the first day, and 26th the second day.  I did everything the same on day two as I did on day one, and the judges we near 100% CBJs on both days.  I wasn't the only one who had this happen.  Anyone have an explanation for that?  We will see the same thing at Bass Pro, guaranteed.

Do any of the top teams turn in a box without garnish at a KCBS event?  Garnish is optional in a KCBS or BCS contest, and the judges are instructed to judge on the appearance of the meat only, this is even reiterated at the table as the table captain is displaying the box for appearance.  So why the garnish?  Because like it or not, a well made garnish enhances the appearance of the meat.  It looks more appetizing. (Just as a poorly garnished box will distract from the meat, possibly giving you a lower score)  Complain about it all you want, but If you want to win KCBS or BCS events, you better be using a well put together garnish.  Just the way it goes.  Most teams know that.


Ha!  This is quite timely.   http://www.tennessean.com/article/20111102/LIFE02/311020082/Barbecue-pointers-from-Jack-Lynchburg   

By the way, notice in the article that many of the judges had just been certified the day before...at THE JACK!

[ThunderDome]

I'd like to see the pics from this event. Where can I find them?

[Mike (AZBarbeque)]

I split the topic & moved the judging discussion to this topic.  I was getting too many messages saying people were not happy about having to read through everything to find the results & pictures (Pictures still yet to be posted.).

[BERNIETHEK]

I'm KCBS certified and have judged approximately 28 events.  Does that make me a better than the person who is judging for the 2nd or 3rd time?  Maybe just a little.  This whole judging thing is making it more difficult for me to want to judge anymore. I , and I'm sure most of the other judges, use the criteria established by BCS and KCBS but that does not mean we are going to be perfect.  In my opinion more emphasis needs to be placed on presentation.  Dean hit right on when he said you don't need garnish but it does make the turn-in box look better. Remember presentation carries as much weight in the scoring as taste and tenderness. 

[Mike P in Tucson]

A comment and a couple of question:

Comment -- since there should have been 8, or at least 7, judging tables for 48 teams, even with rotation, not every team was judged by the all same judges.  So "tough-scoring judges at one or two tables could really sink a team or teams.

Question -- how many tables were there?

Question -- is there any way we could see the scoring of each meat by each table?  Perhaps only a few judges are being considerably "tougher" than all the other judges?

Question (OK, so more than a couple) -- Was the rotation random, or was it worked out in advance?  For instance for teams #1 through # 6, were all those teams meats rotated among tables 1-4 or were they rotated among other tables?  For instance, team #1 pork going to table 3, ribs going to table 8, chicken going to table 5, brisket going to table 1.  Or was table assignment just based on when the meat was turned in?  That is, could a team end up having all their meats judged by the same table, purely by chance?

I know judging is a tough job.  I also realize it is very subjective.  But if there were a way to find out if a few judges were way out of line compared to their counterparts, maybe a "refresher" judging class would be in order.

Yes, I am very disappointed in my scores.  But finding out some of the answers may tell me whetherI need to change how I am cooking / presenting or whether the scoring was just a fluke of getting judged by the wrong table of judges.

[jmcrig]

 Garnish is optional in a KCBS or BCS contest, and the judges are instructed to judge on the appearance of the meat only, this is even reiterated at the table as the table captain is displaying the box for appearance.

 


With that being said, most of the boxes I saw had so much greenery that the meat sat down in the greenery. If you can't see the sides of the meat when it's being presented, it's a poor presentation and judged accordingly.

There was also a comment made that presentation carried the same weight as taste and tenderness. That is not a true statement, both BCS and KCBS weight these categories.